When should you use Fluorocarbon or Co-polymer?

[Cap'n Fishy]

I am too Paul_B in most situations......but for a novice Nylon is definitely easier for dries and a better option.

Fluro can pull your dries under too quickly and if their casting is a bit erratic then it's often best to just " park" the dries out there so the water isn't disturbed and let the fish find it.

Fluro can create a big U underwater as it sinks fast, so when they lift off to fast they get a huge "plooop" and disturbance just like when lifting off a booby..

When someone is experienced, they can try different things , but initially its better to keep it simple in my opinion

The thing is though, that some of us who have been fishing stillwater dries for 30 years or more, still fish our dries on nylon, for the very reasons you point out!

Keep casting to a minimum... avoid thrashing the water to a froth... avoid rocking the boat back and forth... give the fish as much time as it likes to find the fly... avoid big sags developing while you wait... avoid small dries being dragged under...

Softly, softly, catchy monkey...

Added to which - fluoro sticks to the surface film worse than nylon!

Col

 

[glueman]

I am too Paul_B in most situations......but for a novice Nylon is definitely easier for dries and a better option.

Fluro can pull your dries under too quickly and if their casting is a bit erratic then it's often best to just " park" the dries out there so the water isn't disturbed and let the fish find it.

Fluro can create a big U underwater as it sinks fast, so when they lift off to fast they get a huge "plooop" and disturbance just like when lifting off a booby..

When someone is experienced, they can try different things , but initially its better to keep it simple in my opinion

Rob there is an expression,KISS that is keep it simple stupid

 

[Paul_B]

The thing is though, that some of us who have been fishing stillwater dries for 30 years or more, still fish our dries on nylon, for the very reasons you point out!

Keep casting to a minimum... avoid thrashing the water to a froth... avoid rocking the boat back and forth... give the fish as much time as it likes to find the fly... avoid big sags developing while you wait... avoid small dries being dragged under...

Softly, softly, catchy monkey...

Added to which - fluoro sticks to the surface film worse than nylon!

Col

My post was to highlight that not all fluorocarbons are alike, notice the tippet

I'll sit this out

 

[Cap'n Fishy]

My post was to highlight that not all fluorocarbons are alike, notice the tippet

What am I supposed to notice about the tippet?

Col

 

[Rob Edmunds]

But you don't always want to fish your dries static in the same place for long periods....sometimes fan casting the water after 4 or 5 seconds is best ..or fishing them dry for 10 secs before figure of 8'ing subsurface back is best.....so many variables.....I just do what catches the most fish.

Anyway I agree all flurocarbons are different as are all nylons...

We've all got different styles, methods, set ups, traits so certain products work better for us than others..

Anyway I'm moving on..."if someone wants to throw another Pellet in the pond " so we all go round in circles like a stupid stockie be my guest...

But I'm not biting today

 

[codyarrow]

What am I supposed to notice about the tippet?

Col

It's some kind of camo tippet thing going on? Thought that when first saw it - now it has been brought up I guess we will find out?

 

[Cap'n Fishy]

But you don't always want to fish your dries static....sometimes fan casting the water after 4 or 5 seconds is best ..

Well, if I'm moving my dries, that is a different tactic, call it hybrid or whatever... and I sometimes do that on fluoro, if I want to drag them under as I move them. Talking about moving them and talking about rapid fan casting are two different things, surely?

When I talk about dries, I am meaning static dries. The thing about that rapid fan-casting method is that if you are fan-casting every 4 or 5 seconds, you are wafting rod and line and rocking the boat continuously and scaring the fish within your arc (as well as crossing your boat-partner's back-cast at one extreme and fishing his water at the other extreme!). I reckon the reason it works better is that you are showing your flies to the fish on the far edge of your cast, because they are the only ones left to see your flies. You've scared the nearer ones away. You said it yourself in talking about minimising the amount of disturbance of the water. Sorry, but I've never bought into the rapid fan-casting dries thing. It's got 'impatience' written all over it.

We've all got different styles, methods, set ups, traits so certain products work better for us than others...

Definitely - it's why we are always disagreeing with each other any time someone asks the question, "What's the best...?"

Anyway I'm moving on..."if someone wants to throw another Pellet in the pond " so we all go round in circles like a stupid stockie be my guest...

Aye, for sure - I'm in autopilot mode on these ones. But what are you going to do when you get a genuine question like the OP here? Just ignore it because it will kick the hornet's nest for the umpteenth time? The beginner is left unanswered and scratching his head at what the forum is all about? Damned if you do and damned if you don't!

Col

 

[kingf000]

I always carry made up leaders and tippets, both nylon and fluorocarbon. Today the fish were taking lures very close to the bottom. Using a nylon leader I had to use a weighted lure to get it down in a reasonable time. Unfortunately, there was slimy weed on the bottom which the weighted lure kept catching. I switched to a fluorocarbon leader and unweighted lure. It got down quickly but didn't catch on the slime. Problem solved and fish caught. I'm sure this could have been avoided in other ways but this worked.

 

[suzuki15hp]

Try and remember that the next time your boat partner is kicking your arse with fluorocarbon....

That'll no happen Jimmy. Fluorocarbon is banned in my boat.

 

[Cap'n Fishy]

That'll no happen Jimmy. Fluorocarbon is banned in my boat.

Why is that?

 

[BobP]

I've probably written this 50 times by now and still the message doesn't get home. Oh well, here goes number 51.

Back in the 1980's we had a dry fly revolution on the reservoirs driven largely by the competition world. It was extremely successful and it wasn't long before you got some very odd looks if you went on Chew by late April with anything other than a team of dries. In my box the Fiery Brown Shipman's ruled the roost.

The problem we had was that the leader material of the day wasn't that good at sinking. The magazines were full of articles about how important it was to sink the leader when fishing dries and there were recipes for the best leader sinkant and some were explaining how they stuck a glob of sinkant onto their boat seat or rod butt so as to speed up the process of constant de-greasing.

We found ourselves de-greasing every second or third cast to make the blo*dy leader sink. In an 8 hour competition it must have taken up an inordinate amount of time that could, and should, have been taken up with catching - or at least trying to catch - fish.

Now we have a material that will sink. OK, in calm waters or in fine diameters it may need a bit of help, but in reservoir fishing very fine diameters don't really enter into the equation. I remember binning my first spool of fluoro when practicing on the River Dart for a River National Final because despite the advertising blurb the stuff didn't sink but that was about 3lb b.s.

Most fluoros in reservoir mode will sink, but certainly not as fast as some like to portray. Remember at one time we were desperately de-greasing and now we have a material that will sink and what are we told?

"You mustn't use that because it sinks and will drag the flies down." Probably soon to be followed by angler, boat and all if you leave it long enough.

Anglers are weird.

 

[suzuki15hp]

Why is that?

I'm kidding.
Actually, I used nothing but G3 a few years ago when I used to fish Menteith, Carron, North Third, Leven etc., regularly with the same boat partner (no names, because he still fishes Menteith, and he was a nice guy until he got control of either a boat engine or a car engine, then he turned into a madman. I had to ease out of it before it went too far). Then I had a wee break from fishing, before I retired to Ireland. Then when I came out here, I just started back with my very old favourite, Maxima Ultragreen.
I've tried a few fluorocarbons in the past few years in Ireland: Soldarini (pish), Maxima (thick pish), Rio (utter pish) and Riverge (FFS I'm a pensioner).
I rarely do any buzzer fishing on Corrib, but I would give G3 a go again if it becomes readily available.

 

[Cap'n Fishy]

Now we have a material that will sink. OK, in calm waters or in fine diameters it may need a bit of help, but in reservoir fishing very fine diameters don't really enter into the equation. I remember binning my first spool of fluoro when practicing on the River Dart for a River National Final because despite the advertising blurb the stuff didn't sink but that was about 3lb b.s.

Most fluoros in reservoir mode will sink, but certainly not as fast as some like to portray. Remember at one time we were desperately de-greasing and now we have a material that will sink and what are we told?

"You mustn't use that because it sinks and will drag the flies down." Probably soon to be followed by angler, boat and all if you leave it long enough.

Anglers are weird.

Bob, with all due respect, you just don't get it.

For the 52nd time...

Now we have a material that will sink. OK, in calm waters or in fine diameters it may need a bit of help

Fluoro (I assume that is what you are referring to) needs help to get through the surface, exactly the same as nylon needs help to get through the surface. Both of them tend to stick when they hit the surface interface, which is hydrophobic and lipophilic. The surface chemistry of fluoro seems to make it more inclined to stick in the interface than nylon, particularly in smaller diameters.

I remember binning my first spool of fluoro when practicing on the River Dart for a River National Final because despite the advertising blurb the stuff didn't sink but that was about 3lb b.s.

Aye, well, that's why!

Most fluoros in reservoir mode will sink, but certainly not as fast as some like to portray.

There is no portrayal. Once both nylon and fluoro are taken below the surface and released, fluoro sinks at 3 times the rate of nylon of the same diameter. Fact!

Remember at one time we were desperately de-greasing and now we have a material that will sink and what are we told?

What are you told Bob? Who is telling you what to believe? Can you not work it out for yourself???? Try it. Take a piece of nylon and a piece of fluoro and check they are the same diameter. Then hold them just under the surface of a bucket of water, and put a stopwatch on them and time them sinking to the bottom. Then come back and tell us what you found for yourself.

"You mustn't use that because it sinks and will drag the flies down." Probably soon to be followed by angler, boat and all if you leave it long enough.

FFS! No one is telling you you must or mustn't use anything. What we are doing is relating our own experiences and our own findings and leaving folk to try things for themselves and to make their own conclusions. Your continued hyperbole and gross exaggeration does you no favours on this subject.

 

[Wee Jimmy]

Anglers are weird.

You can say that again.The Bristol teams were cleaning up during that era you mention.They were all using double strength, yet you claimed it was worse than useless because you couldn’t get on with it.... I must have told you that 50 times, still never had an answer.

 

[Rob Edmunds]

"Hoppers" were first used to great success in the Benson & Hedges International Final by Grafham Water Fly Fishers by John Moore etc...........the Bristol team just took the fly and method back to Chew/Blagdon/Barrows etc.....and made it famous..as they became known as "Bristol Hoppers"

Slightly off topic.....and probably boring for most but it's a bit of history about the pattern...

 

[LukeNZ]

If uou dont want to over complicate choice of leafer material and always be in the ball park, just go with Maxima green in the appropriate breaking strain - roughly 2/3 the weight in pounds of the largest fish you could realistically expect for the water you are fishing. The rod will take care of the difference.

 

[Cap'n Fishy]

"Hoppers" were first used to great success in the Benson & Hedges International Final by Grafham Water Fly Fishers by John Moore etc...........the Bristol team just took the fly and method back to Chew/Blagdon/Barrows etc.....and made it famous..as they became known as "Bristol Hoppers"

Slightly off topic.....and probably boring for most but it's a bit of history about the pattern...

I fished 7 of those B&H grand finals of the 1980s and 1990s. Thanks for calling me history!

I got my grounding in stillwater dry fly in one of those 1980s finals, fishing with Paul Canning on Rutland*. Also got my arse kicked a couple of years earlier by Brian Leadbetter on Rutland, when he was using trad wets as static nymphs in calm conditions, when it was a beyond my ken. Then one of our team, who had never fished a stillwater dry fly in his puff had the misfortune to draw John Horsey in the final on Grafham. It was a flat-calmer, with fish rising at long range... Horsey was on dry hoppers. The score at the end of the day: our lad 0; Horsey 16.

But we took it away and we learned from it, and we put it into practice ourselves, and within a few years we were holding our own with our stillwater dries...

Col

* I remember that my set up consisted of a 3-fly team of fiery brown bits (which were more like chocolate brown), tied on wet fly hooks and fished on 6 lb Mastermono, which was similar to Maxima Ultragreen!

 

[Cap'n Fishy]

If uou dont want to over complicate choice of leafer material and always be in the ball park, just go with Maxima green in the appropriate breaking strain - roughly 2/3 the weight in pounds of the largest fish you could realistically expect for the water you are fishing. The rod will take care of the difference.

Aye, I noted someone upthread was recommended to use 12 lb Maxima on one of the Irish loughs. I thought WTF? I use 6 lb Maxima on the salmon, seatrout and ferox lochs. Never come close to being broken on it. I think my 7-weight rod would break before 6 lb Maxima did. I got in a situation last year when I was trying to lever a salmon out from under the boat, and I had the rod bent into a circle and I was looking at it and was worrying it was going to break. The fish gave up and came out from under the boat and we netted it. I thought, well, if you can do that with 6 lb Maxima, when would you need to go heavier???

Col

 

[eddleston123]

WHAT'S YOUR LINE



It is a choice we have to make
Before we cast by river or lake.

Fluorocarbon the fish can't see
But a sudden break and the fish swims free.

Nylon is the one some pick
Hard as nails and hard to lick.

Maxima, Drennan is hailed the best
A tarry rope - my case I'll rest.

Copolymer is the modern line
So full of science it must be fine.

It's better than nylon and not too dear
With all these poly things, the science is clear.

But there's no need to complicate
There's only one that I would rate,

A simple line that's stood the test
A spool of Mono is the best!




Douglas

 

[original cormorant]

What you'' learn from this and other threads is that Cap'n F is more knowledgeable than a chemist, (in actual fact he doesn't like the word copolymer and like Donald Trump says is isn't real).

"A copolymer is a polymer derived from more than one species of monomer. The polymerization of monomers into copolymers is called copolymerization. Copolymers obtained by copolymerization of two monomer species are sometimes called bipolymers."

Polymer is the correct name for what we tend call plastic. The plastic we call 'nylon' is a polymer. Nylon is a brand name, a marketing name for plastic, created by Du Pont in the 1930s.

But does that matter? Does it help catch fish?
Posts 9 and 15 from Rob and Capn Birdseye told the OP what he wanted to know in clear practical terms. The OP's problem (and mine) is people over complicating with irrelevant and sometimes inaccurate technical detail.