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  1. #61
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Sheffield
    Posts
    6,966

    Default Re: Is this cheating?

    [QUOTE=kingf000;2497324] I've read that this is typical of a lake with low calcium levels

    Many fish keepers use crushed cockle shell as a PH buffer, very effective and long lasting, it is available by the ton I was told by the local aquarium outlet. I keep a sack of 5 KG of crushed cockle shell in the filters and PH is stable year round, that is for a 3000 gallon pond.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North East Wales
    Posts
    10,937
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Is this cheating?

    Quote Originally Posted by kingf000 View Post
    I don't think I am a great angler, but I don't think I am that bad. Trout seem to be finicky. One time you can catch loads, you go a few days later, everything seems to be the same, you try the same method, but you catch nothing. You then start trying every fly and technique you have found successful in the past, and sometimes all fail. If there is a method available to you that can avoid a blank day, then why not go for it. I wouldn't say I was desperate to catch fish, its just that I'm much happier when I do. When using a washing line set up, it seems to be normal to use a highly bouyant point fly, which doesn't have much similarity to anything natural that is about at this time of year, be it a blob, booby or anything else. So again, why not use one that has the best chance of taking fish? I'm going again today and have tied some tan foam beetles, as I'm sure there are lots of tan beetles about at this time of year!

    The quantity of food in the lake relative to the stock level is another matter! I checked the pH in september and it was 6.8, rather on the acidic side. I checked it again in January, when all the weed had died back, and it was 8.2. I've read that this is typical of a lake with low calcium levels, the higher pH in winter being due to release of ammonia by the rotting vegetation and not enough calcium to complex the ammonia. I'm continuing to monitor to see if the pH drops again when the weed comes back.
    This is interesting, most small stillwater stock fish get caught within a week or so of stocking and those that aren't will have seen flies and maybe hooked and lost and this might explain the fish "going off" after a few days of good catches. Hunger also starts to move them onto natural food and they become less susceptible to lures and more of a burden for the lake food supply.

    Most stillwaters, including those in fertile areas, are overstocked in terms of the biomass and the ability of the food supply of the water to support it. When a high percentage are caught and killed before they start feeding it doesn't much matter but, when angling pressure and food supply drops in the winter, this might change. A pH of 6.8 is slightly acidic but not worryingly so, around 7.5 is ideal for trout and the very best trout fisheries (Blagdon, Grafham, chalk streams and the Irish limestone lakes) might have a pH in the low 8s so there's not much wrong with your pH values.

    If there is a problem it is most likely to be too many fish for the available food.
    “There is no more lovely country than Monmouthshire in early spring. Nowhere do the larks sing quite so passionately, as if somehow inspired by the Welsh themselves. There is a blackbird on every thorn and a cock chaffinch, a twink as they call him there, on every bush...... It moved me profoundly. I had been spared to see another spring, and I thank God for it.”

    Oliver Kite
    “A Spring Day on the Usk”
    A Fisherman’s Diary

  3. #63

    Default Re: Is this cheating?

    The OP asked is this cheating? Well, the simple answer to that is no, not if the rules of the fishery do not prohibit the use of pellet imitations. If they did outlaw such flies I'd like to see how they word the ruling. What exactly do you ban? Any fly that is round and that floats on the surface?

    If it is a question of ethics, only the individual can decide. I doubt the trout cares one way or the other, and apart from the trout and the angler who catches it, it's no-one elses business. If you get wound up by anglers catching trout on lures, or pellet flies, or blobs, you probably ought to fish somewhere else. If catching trout yourself on these things bothers you, stop using them. Make your own rules, as long as they are within the rules of the fishery. On small stillwaters I often limit myself to dry fly or nymph no larger than a size 16, if it's sport and a challenge I want; conversely if I need a couple of fish to eat or give to friends, I'll use whatever works.

    Small put-and-take waters rely on frequent turnover of trout, so the sooner they are caught the better for everyone. The trout are in better condition when caught and the fishery remains commercially viable and can spend money on improvements. That's how they work. You may reduce your own catch rate by self-imposed regulation, but you cannot, and should not, impose such a regime on the other punters.

    You might consider what sort of flies really represent natural food items, and which ones merely trigger a reflexive response from the trout. In many cases, a fly in the first category can be made to perform like one in the second, just by changing how you present it. A classic Sawyers Pheasant Tail Nymph will trigger a reflex response if dropped close to a cruising fish, or if twitched as one approaches. Sawyer and Kite employed this method and considered it perfectly legitimate, yet both considered the use of a mayfly nymph imitation 'butchery'. The lines between imitation, deception and provocation are rather blurred, and quite arbitrary.

    I sometimes think more anglers than trout are deceived by imitation.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Posts
    7,006

    Default Re: Is this cheating?

    Quote Originally Posted by kingf000 View Post

    The quantity of food in the lake relative to the stock level is another matter! I checked the pH in september and it was 6.8, rather on the acidic side. I checked it again in January, when all the weed had died back, and it was 8.2. I've read that this is typical of a lake with low calcium levels, the higher pH in winter being due to release of ammonia by the rotting vegetation and not enough calcium to complex the ammonia. I'm continuing to monitor to see if the pH drops again when the weed comes back.
    A pH of 7 is neutral, so 6.8 is hardly acidic compared to some waters on peat & granite where 5.5 - 6 is nothing unusual and yet trout live there. They don't get that big, but they can certainly be very numerous. As the OP has observed the pH varies so that reading doesn't really mean very much.

    I daresay some of the same people who are castigating him for using a piece of cork glued to a hook and fished just awash would also be leaping up & down if he had proudly announced that he has slammed out a dozen stockies on blobs, while others would cheerfully have done it themselves and thought how clever they were.

    kingf000. Look up the late Richard Walker's poem, "Grizzleguts". It's on here somewhere. Very appropriate!

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Co. Armagh.
    Posts
    1,521

    Default Re: Is this cheating?

    I think poems are unsporting and should be banned.

    When men looked very much like apes, five million years ago,
    They only caught small animals, or old ones that were slow.
    They hadn't learned to use a tool, nor yet invented huts,
    But each tribe had a member whose name was Grizzleguts.

    "It's really most unsporting," he would furiously roar,
    Whenever he saw something he had never seen before.
    About each new invention he would angrily complain,
    Saying it should be made taboo and never used again.

    One day, while hunting in a group some men disturbed a deer,
    It brushed asidetheir grasping hands and very soon broke clear.
    Inspired, one hunter threw a rock and hit it on the head.
    Old Grizzleguts then raised his voice and this is what he said:

    "It's really most unsporting, we shall have to see it's banned.
    The only decent way to kill is with your own bare hand,
    If everyone starts throwing things, if rocks & stones are tossed,
    The fine old art of throttling will very soon be lost."

    A few ice ages later a man picked up a pole
    And found that if he sharpened it, the thing would make a hole.
    And when he stuck it in a boar, his quarry quickly died,
    But Grizzleguts was watching him, and this is what he cried.

    "It's really most unsporting; we shall have to make a rule,
    That says a sharpened hunting pole is a forbidden tool.
    If not, we'll kill off all the game! We'll wipe out all the stocks!
    And soon, society will lose the art of throwing rocks!"

    Another ice age later a hunter made a bow,
    And aiming at a bison, saw his arrow lay it low.
    The hunter was delighted when he saw how well he'd aimed,
    But Grizzleguts, who stood nearby, immediately declaimed:

    "It's really most unsporting, and it shouldn't be allowed,
    If this is not prevented it will spread to all the crowd.
    There won't be any bison left, and that would be a shame;
    And society will quickly lose the art of spearing game."

    Today, if you invent a better fishing rod, reel or gun
    To do what once we did for food and now we do for fun;
    If you devise a more effective cartridge, bait or fly,
    Old Grizzleguts is still around,and this is what he'll cry:

    "It's really most unsporting, and a rule we must adopt,
    That says the use of this new thing is permanently stopped.
    I've never even seen it, no sight of it I've had,
    But I am quite convinced that new things must all be bad!"

    Do not let his cries concern you, for he seldom gets his way.
    The inventions that improved man's lot have come, and come to stay.
    And but forthese inventions we can very plainly see
    That Grizzleguts would feed on nuts and live up in a tree!



    I wonder if he had used a nice tightly clipped G&H sedge on a pellet sized hook at a time of the year when there were no sedges about would that have been cheating or proper fly fishing. As far as I'm concerned he identified the food item the fish were taking and imitated it. That's a lot more accurate than the dabblers I'll be pulling on the big lough in March. And no, I don't think that pulling dabblers is cheating either. Given that you can't please everyone, perhaps you should just please yourself and give the rest of us the big um.

    S.
    Sixty and still got it.
    Just can't remember where I set it down.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Devon
    Posts
    1,917

    Default Re: Is this cheating?

    He asked for people views...
    He’s got them

  7. #67

    Default Re: Is this cheating?

    Many thanks for the poem, I love it. It reminds me of when I started work in industry as a chemist many, many years ago. The procedures used in the company at that time were those that had been prevalent in academia 20 years earlier and hadn't changed with advent of new technologies. I set out to change that and used more modern procedures in my own work, which allowed me to take shortcuts with much improved results. I was then accused by the Grizzleguts of being a disgrace to chemistry!

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Redditch
    Posts
    216

    Default Re: Is this cheating?

    Quote Originally Posted by splinters View Post
    I think poems are unsporting and should be banned.

    When men looked very much like apes, five million years ago,
    They only caught small animals, or old ones that were slow.
    They hadn't learned to use a tool, nor yet invented huts,
    But each tribe had a member whose name was Grizzleguts.

    "It's really most unsporting," he would furiously roar,
    Whenever he saw something he had never seen before.
    About each new invention he would angrily complain,
    Saying it should be made taboo and never used again.

    One day, while hunting in a group some men disturbed a deer,
    It brushed asidetheir grasping hands and very soon broke clear.
    Inspired, one hunter threw a rock and hit it on the head.
    Old Grizzleguts then raised his voice and this is what he said:

    "It's really most unsporting, we shall have to see it's banned.
    The only decent way to kill is with your own bare hand,
    If everyone starts throwing things, if rocks & stones are tossed,
    The fine old art of throttling will very soon be lost."

    A few ice ages later a man picked up a pole
    And found that if he sharpened it, the thing would make a hole.
    And when he stuck it in a boar, his quarry quickly died,
    But Grizzleguts was watching him, and this is what he cried.

    "It's really most unsporting; we shall have to make a rule,
    That says a sharpened hunting pole is a forbidden tool.
    If not, we'll kill off all the game! We'll wipe out all the stocks!
    And soon, society will lose the art of throwing rocks!"

    Another ice age later a hunter made a bow,
    And aiming at a bison, saw his arrow lay it low.
    The hunter was delighted when he saw how well he'd aimed,
    But Grizzleguts, who stood nearby, immediately declaimed:

    "It's really most unsporting, and it shouldn't be allowed,
    If this is not prevented it will spread to all the crowd.
    There won't be any bison left, and that would be a shame;
    And society will quickly lose the art of spearing game."

    Today, if you invent a better fishing rod, reel or gun
    To do what once we did for food and now we do for fun;
    If you devise a more effective cartridge, bait or fly,
    Old Grizzleguts is still around,and this is what he'll cry:

    "It's really most unsporting, and a rule we must adopt,
    That says the use of this new thing is permanently stopped.
    I've never even seen it, no sight of it I've had,
    But I am quite convinced that new things must all be bad!"

    Do not let his cries concern you, for he seldom gets his way.
    The inventions that improved man's lot have come, and come to stay.
    And but forthese inventions we can very plainly see
    That Grizzleguts would feed on nuts and live up in a tree!



    I wonder if he had used a nice tightly clipped G&H sedge on a pellet sized hook at a time of the year when there were no sedges about would that have been cheating or proper fly fishing. As far as I'm concerned he identified the food item the fish were taking and imitated it. That's a lot more accurate than the dabblers I'll be pulling on the big lough in March. And no, I don't think that pulling dabblers is cheating either. Given that you can't please everyone, perhaps you should just please yourself and give the rest of us the big um.

    S.
    Like the poem but can't help thinking that if we had listened to old Grizzleguts now and then.The world wouldn't be in the mess it's in now
    Last edited by bobnudd; 12-02-2019 at 07:55 PM.
    I fish, therefore I am 'Rene Descartes' { or was it captain birdseye}?

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Hampshire
    Posts
    2,706

    Default Re: Is this cheating?

    Quote Originally Posted by kingf000 View Post
    I noticed at my local lake that the fish had been fed with floating pellets and a few were still around in the margins. I therefore tried a floating 'pellet' fly that I had used in the summer for carp. Wow! the fish went mad for it and I caught over 10 rainbow and tiger trout in about 1.5 hours, this in February! Every time I caught a fish, the disturbance seemed to bring up pellets from the bottom and provoked a feeding frenzy. So is this cheating? It is no different from an advised method for catching summer carp, feeding with pellets to get the carp confident, then going in with your pellet fly. Also it is simply using the accepted principle of identifying what the fish are feeding on and using the appropriate fly. I've also read about similar methods being used to catch newly stocked trout. I was using a washing line rig with the pellet fly on point and buzzers on the droppers. The fish showed no interest at all in the droppers apart from when I was fighting a fish, when the rapidly moving buzzers seemed to attract some fish. I've only tried this fly once on the lake and I suspect that in future the fish will rapidly get wise to the fly and be much more cautious.
    I have to question where on earth are you fishing? pellets in the margins? so many fish that they're charging around after rapidly moving buzzers while fighting fish? stirring up pellets from the bottom causing a feeding frenzy? Catching 10 fish in an hour and a half? - Now, don't get me wrong, i love a good stillwater, but that sounds like hell to me!

  10. #70

    Default Re: Is this cheating?

    Hell, or heaven? There are many fly fishers who pay lots of money to fish rivers at Mayfly time to get that catch rate! I was looking into joining a club on the Derbyshire Dove and the secretary told me that many of the members only fish the river in May and June! I think these circumstances are due to a stocking policy assuming a large loss of fish over winter. However, with the mild winter, most of the fish have survived and with the warming water, the fish are getting excited. I'm going grayling fishing on the Derbyshire Derwent next weekend, so that should be bring me either up or down to earth!

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