[Guest666]

Now that I look at it, I think it has a touch of the 'converging verticals'.

Is gravity in straight parallel lines until infinity Col?

I try and pile my tippet to combat drag

 

[Cap'n Fishy]

Is gravity in straight parallel lines until infinity Col?

Good point - though I guess 'vanishing point' here is the centre of the Earth.

Col

 

[Guest666]

Good point - though I guess 'vanishing point' here is the centre of the Earth.

Col

It would be some cast

 

[BobP]

Anyone who says they don't bother and they catch fish... well, how the **** do they know whether or not they would catch more fish if they bothered?

Col

Conversely how can anyone who de-greases religiously know whether or not they catch more fish as a result? The answer, of course, is they don't, any more than I don't know if de-greasing might result in better catches.

 

[russfx]

Conversely how can anyone who de-greases religiously know whether or not they catch more fish as a result? The answer, of course, is they don't, any more than I don't know if de-greasing might result in better catches.

Yep, that's true. But to know for sure you'd have to try to control for all the other variables (weather, hatches, underwater food, how "hungry" the fish are). Would be an interesting one though, even with those confounding factors. I feel sure someone would have done this somewhere. Personally I'm pretty convinced by the pictures showing what the line looks like when it's in the surface

 

[Wee Jimmy]

Conversely how can anyone who de-greases religiously know whether or not they catch more fish as a result? The answer, of course, is they don't, any more than I don't know if de-greasing might result in better catches.

That would depend on whether its based on blind faith or simple observation Bob. All I can say for certain is that I've seen more than enough evidence to convince "me" that it makes enough of a difference.

 

[bishthefish]

When I first started fly fishing a few decades ago, I never used gave much thought to greasing or degreasing my leader - I fished mainly north country wets on rain fed rivers and streams and would make up the leader from what ever material I had (usually what was best priced in my LFS), tie on the flies and chuck them out. I caught fish so I was happy!
Then about a decade or so ago I got talking to an old boy on my local stream - he would degrease his whole leader and then grease up everything up except the last 12" or so. This would keep most of the leader in the film (to aid striking) except near the fly (to reduce tippet visibility). I tried this myself and noticed an improvement in catches.
This then got me thinking about leader material as well - nylon vs. copolymer vs. fluorocarbon! I now use fluorocarbon (well degreased) for the tippet with copolymer for the rest onto a floating braided / furled leader for most of my fishing.

 

[Cap'n Fishy]

... nylon vs. copolymer...

Copolymer is nylon.

Col

 

[Cap'n Fishy]

The answer, of course, is they don't, any more than I don't know if de-greasing might result in better catches.

Incorrect answer. The reason I know it makes a difference is because of the many years of observations made when fishing dries on stillwaters. (I appreciate I am talking about stillwaters here, and it may be different on broken river water.) The problem with leaders and oily calm surfaces is that they stick - that's why we have to keep degreasing them if we want them to sink. Immediately after degreasing, they sink. After a while they start floating again. So, we degrease and get them to sink again. And after a while they start to float. So, whether we want to or not, we are fishing the leader both sunk and floating over the course of the day.

Concentrating on fishing dries close to the boat with minimal short casting (as we do) allows for fish to be caught at close range, and it allows for seeing the reaction of the fish to the fly. There are 4 basic reactions:

1) the leader is sunk and the fish takes the fly
2) the leader is sunk and the fish aborts the take
3) the leader is floating and the fish takes the fly
4) the leader is floating and the fish aborts the take

All 4 of those can occur in a normal day. Over the past nearly 30 years that I have been fishing stillwater dries, I can say with a high degree of confidence from the 1000s of observations that I have made at first hand that a higher proportion of 1) occurs, compared to 3), and that a higher proportion of 4) occurs, compared to 2). And that's why I degrease.

That's just my observations and my conclusions. Others may be different. However, the important thing is that it's based on observations, not guesswork. Even if I hadn't been making these observations, I propose that the basic premise, "Will a floating leader and a sunk leader give exactly the same results, when fishing dries?", cannot possibly give the answer: "Yes - they will be exactly the same." Think about what is going on and the very different presentations - one must have an advantage over the other, surely?

Col

 

[bishthefish]

Copolymer is nylon.

Col

mg: No Nylon is Nylon, usually either nylon 6 or 6'6 (polycaprolactam and polyethylenediamine/adipic acid respectively).

Copolymer is a mixture of two or more different polymers to make a homogenous mixture of polymers.

 

[Cap'n Fishy]

Copolymer is...

Copolymer is... an adjective. You could have copolymer fluorocarbon if you want. What's the noun here? Cellulose? PVC? Neoprene? Polystyrene... Polyethylene... Polypropylene... Polyacrylonitrile? No, it's nylon.

I'm patiently waiting for someone to find me a confirmed example of a nylon fishing line that is not copolymer nylon. I'm happy to accept that they might exist, but no one seems to be able to name one. I asked the makers of 2 of the best-known bog-standard nylons - Maxima and Drennan - if their product was copolymer nylon. I didn't hear back from either of them, so I'm still waiting.

Col

 

[Guest]

mg: No Nylon is Nylon, usually either nylon 6 or 6'6 (polycaprolactam and polyethylenediamine/adipic acid respectively).

Copolymer is a mixture of two or more different polymers to make a homogenous mixture of polymers.

Thank goodness a plastics nerd at last forum needs more nerds

Andy

 

[BobP]

The only thing I would bet on, Col, is that the colour of the leader makes a difference.

I fished an eliminator at Chew back in the hey day of dry fly fishing. Both of us in the boat put up virtually identical flies, but mine were on 6lb Smart, ie clear mono while matey at the pointy end used standard brown Maxima also in 6lb. He kept getting refusal after refusal and couldn't work out why. I was 5-0 up before it finally clicked and he switched to a clear mono. By then it was too late.

In October I fished four days on the Itchen for grayling using both nymphs and dries. The Itchen has a clarity that would have Gordon's getting out the prayer mats and that coupled with bright sun straight downstream meant for some very circumspect grayling. I used 4lb fluoro or Gigafish.Neither made a lot of difference and the grayling happily chomped dries when they drifted over them.

Personally I don't think it makes enough of a difference enough of the time. Am I going to beat myself to death because I caught 25 grayling without de-greasing when I might have caught 26 if I had? No.

 

[Guest]

frustrating but lovely day in the autumnal colors I spent the evening youtubing better dry fly techniques.

My drag controll & striking definately needs work but another .

My advice is to work on control ,drag issues and striking , just a rough guide on dry fly fishing for grayling .

Bear in mind the leaves are still falling as its been very mild , Sycamore tress are full of aphids and Greenfly ,grayling will home in on these .

Midges will hatch out in Autumn , temperature will be a factor , often you will get grayling rising on certain parts of the river , keep a mental note . A few lads on here are still do well with the dries for grayling , Vince and Bop spring to mind . A few more members may give a few tips who are still catching grayling at this time of year .

As regards fly patters then small micro dries can work very well , Griffiths Gnats , IOBO Humpy and small F Flies , size 20 and under .

Grayling will just sip these small insects that fall or hatch out , at times grayling wont move far to intercept the naturals , very rarely will grayling take dry flies that drag .

There are different ways to target grayling , a downstream presentation works very well on both normal and windy days , as the grayling will see the fly first . Parachute and another cast which I don't know the name off ,but you almost trot the fly into the path of the waiting rising grayling .

A upstream presentation also works well for grayling lying on long slow moving pools , often grayling can be seen in the middle part of the river .

A side ways approach is often worth considering , the lies where you get complex currents , grayling lying on tricky seams or in slightly slow drop offs .

There are various presentation casts that can delay drag , even if the fly remains drag free for a second or two then you might catch the grayling .

Long fine tapered leaders are great for downstream and side ways approach .

If you are using small flies then use a tippet to suit the size of your flies .

A bit of practice and observations can make a lot of difference , good luck and I hope you manage to catch a few .

I find sticking straight away helps when targeting grayling on the dry flies .

 

[Cap'n Fishy]

... standard brown Maxima also in 6lb.

Jeezo - we don't even use 'tarry rope' for pulling lures on fast sinkers... I might just use it on Loch Roag, where the water is about the same colour as brown Maxima.

... I caught 25 grayling without de-greasing when I might have caught 26 if I had...

Aye, we're not talking about a difference of 26 to 25 on a particular outing. mg: The first-hand observations referred to above amount to what would test as a highly significant difference between floating and sunk. I could say 2 to 1, or 3 to 1, or 4 to 1... or higher. I'm not going to guess at the figure, but it's significant, and it's more of less constant, year-in, year-out. Hence, I degrease.

Anyroad, I thought you were the guy who was all over using fluoro for his dries in order to take advantage of the higher density that would sink the leader and do away with the need to degrease nylon?

Col

 

[Cap'n Fishy]

... mine were on 6lb Smart...

Hang about... Smart is a double-strength, pre-stretched type nylon. What were you doing using that? According to you, it breaks when you sneeze on it.

Col

 

[JeffR]

Mud the last 18" before the fly for me on the river, rest of it I prefer to float, less resistance on the strike, and far better if using CDC flies.
S.

Thats basically me too, at least on flat water, on broken/faster/rough water they get less time to inspect anything that closely.

 

[BobP]

Two points Col.

1) I do use fluoro for dries as well as nymphs mainly because I can get a higher breaking strain for a given diameter, and also because it sinks at a faster rate than copoly. As the dries on rivers and/or reservoirs are not going to be floating in one place for many seconds the "sink factor" doesn't come into play as far as dragging the flies under goes.

2) I did have a thing about Smart at the time because it was clear and also it's knot strength was not that bad. It's the Drennan Double Cr*p and the then Orvis Super Strong that I avoided.

Actually, the new Orvis Super Strong is not bad as far as diameter goes, but the knots do have a tendency to slip. I now use a 6 turn tucked half blood knot and that seems to have cured the problem. I talked this over with the staff at the Orvis shop in Stockbridge and they backed up my findings.

 

[Wee Jimmy]

talked this over with the staff at the Orvis shop in Stockbridge and they backed up my findings.

More likely they were agreeing with you just to get you the **** out of the shop...

 

[Cap'n Fishy]

As the dries on ... reservoirs are not going to be floating in one place for many seconds...

Just a wee suggestion...

Instead of always doing the rapid fan casting... lift, cast, lift, cast, lift, cast... why not have a go at fishing dries the way Jimmy and I do it? Hunt out the sipping risers in among the leaf litter in the quiet corners. Put your flies out - you don't need a long line, because you are not thrashing the water or rocking the boat the whole time. A couple of rod lengths is often all that's required. Watch the flies... and wait. You may find you need to use nylon for this game. Watch for the tell-tale signs of a refusal, as a vortex of water appears alongside the fly. Watch for when a fish rises to your fly but never actually takes it into its mouth. Check whether the leader was floating at the time when these things happen. It's all these observations that allow you to total up the number of instances of my 1), 2), 3), 4) classification upthread. Then you will have data to make a conclusion, rather than be left guessing.

I did have a thing about Smart at the time because it was clear and also it's knot strength was not that bad. It's the Drennan Double Cr*p and the then Orvis Super Strong that I avoided.

Smart was famously the slipperiest nylon out there. Smart TT - the TT stood for 'Teflon Treatment' - you needed to be really careful with your knots. I used Drennan Double-Strength for several years without any issues. I did have issues when I gave Orvis Super Strong a try and have avoided it ever since. Anyroad, it now seems that your previous blanket condemnation of all prestretched type nylons was, in fact, rather exaggerated. No?

Col