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Discussion starter · #101 ·
More confusion. From the Maxcatch site


Die-Cast Aluminum reels should not be confused with machined aluminum reels. Die cast aluminum is metal that has been heated and cast in to the shape of a mould - often there are tell tale molding marks on die cast reels, small burrs and imperfections. Die cast reels are more impact resistant than plastic but have nowhere near the structural integrity of machine aluminum reels.

Die cast reels are fine for the domestic angler who is careful with his kit, or even the occasional angler. Again one should avoid die-cast reels in salt water as the cast aluminum will not take any anodizing, only powder coating and paining. Saltwater will corrode these materials quickly.
 
More confusion. From the Maxcatch site


Die-Cast Aluminum reels should not be confused with machined aluminum reels. Die cast aluminum is metal that has been heated and cast in to the shape of a mould - often there are tell tale molding marks on die cast reels, small burrs and imperfections. Die cast reels are more impact resistant than plastic but have nowhere near the structural integrity of machine aluminum reels.

Die cast reels are fine for the domestic angler who is careful with his kit, or even the occasional angler. Again one should avoid die-cast reels in salt water as the cast aluminum will not take any anodizing, only powder coating and paining. Saltwater will corrode these materials quickly.
Maybe that's a pop at Lamson and Orvis who both do Anodised cast injected reels now- they are getting very good and you'd struggle to tell they weren't machined. It's total bs of course- you can anodise any aluminium and quite a few other metals too.
 
More confusion. From the Maxcatch site


Die-Cast Aluminum reels should not be confused with machined aluminum reels. Die cast aluminum is metal that has been heated and cast in to the shape of a mould - often there are tell tale molding marks on die cast reels, small burrs and imperfections. Die cast reels are more impact resistant than plastic but have nowhere near the structural integrity of machine aluminum reels.

Die cast reels are fine for the domestic angler who is careful with his kit, or even the occasional angler. Again one should avoid die-cast reels in salt water as the cast aluminum will not take any anodizing, only powder coating and paining. Saltwater will corrode these materials quickly.
I could be tempted to argue that die cast reels are less impact resistant than plastic. Die cast reels are liable to break if dropped on hard surfaces - I have an old abu with a broken reel foot that fell off a kitchen worktop onto a wooden floor. I suspect my plastic lineshooter would have bounced and lived. Quite right die cast reels tend to be brittle and don't have the structural integrity of reels machined from bar-stock.

I suspect Hardrar is right about taking a pop at Lamson and Orvis. In practice Maxcatch are pretty well immune from prosecution for false claims - no one has a wagatha christie budget to dispute them.
 
I could be tempted to argue that die cast reels are less impact resistant than plastic. Die cast reels are liable to break if dropped on hard surfaces - I have an old abu with a broken reel foot that fell off a kitchen worktop onto a wooden floor. I suspect my plastic lineshooter would have bounced and lived. Quite right die cast reels tend to be brittle and don't have the structural integrity of reels machined from bar-stock.

I suspect Hardrar is right about taking a pop at Lamson and Orvis. In practice Maxcatch are pretty well immune from prosecution for false claims - no one has a wagatha christie budget to dispute them.
I said upthread reinforced plastic reels are tougher than aluminium, and that would go for cnc barstock jobs too.

Dropped a diecast wychwood SLA in a carpark and spent half an hour on the bank squeezing and fettling to stop the frame rubbing on the spool.

Have dropped okuma airframe and shakey sigma plastic jobs with no discernable effect.
 
Discussion starter · #105 ·
It seems likely that it depends on the quality and type of aluminium alloy used whether anodising is going to be appropriate.


Question:
I am interested in finding some information about anodizing an aluminum die cast parts. The two alloys I am looking at are 360°F and 380°F. Are there any aluminum die cast alloys that would take an anodized finish better than others? I am planning on having the parts polished before the finishing operation. I'm not real familiar with the anodizing process so I would appreciate any information that you can provide. The parts I am looking at are produced in China. T.P.


Answer:
Both 360 and 380 die cast alloys can be successfully anodized. The 360 alloy is high in silicon and low in copper while 380 is fairly high in both of these alloying elements. The "A" versions of either are lower in iron, which helps produce a better anodized finish. Whichever alloy you anodize, the quality of the die casting is critical to achieving a good anodized finish. I am not a metallurgist, so bear with me. Grain size, crystal size and phase distribution are the important factors affecting casting surface soundness and uniformity. In high-silicon alloys, such as 360 and 380, the silicon crystals are hard, plate-like particles and can be fairly large. Since silicon does not anodize, you can end up with an irregular, blotchy surface appearance after anodizing. Crystal size and distribution can be controlled by the addition of sodium or strontium. This is done in the melting stage. Your metallurgists probably already know this.

In any case, anodizing of either of these alloys will give a rather dull gray appearance. If the silicon is not homogeneous, it wants to migrate to the metal surface and will appear as brownish, blotchy areas after anodizing. Anodizing should be done in a bath of 200-250 g/liter sulfuric acid at 70° F,voltage should not exceed 15 volts.

Polishing of the castings may result in the "high" points of the metal surface being smoothed over resulting in "voids" in the metal that may be revealed in the anodizing process. You will have to experiment to see what polishing techniques produce the best finish after anodizing.

 
Discussion starter · #106 · (Edited)
I can't find any mention of anodising on Lamson's Liquid reel. But on their more expensive reels they're happy to tell us all about it. Cobalt:

A coating as hard as type III anodize but with 20 times the protection against a saltwater environment, Cobalt is endowed with a stunning, shielding Micralox finish-exclusive to Waterworks-Lamson in the fly fishing world.

They don't say it's CNC but it will be.

The Orvis Clearwater is also die-cast but the Clearwater is powder coated. Their more expensive Mirage though:

Machined in the USA from strong, yet lightweight 6061 T6 aluminium barstock. Ergonomically designed machined aluminium handle. Quick release spool easily converts from left to right-hand retrieve. Military-spec type III hard coat anodizing.

It's actually quite hard to establish exactly what some reels are made from, as usual the marketing blurb tends to be vague yet gushing.

The perennial Orvis Battenkill is opaque about it's manufacture and finish. I've seen it described as both diecast and CNC but I'd go for CNC. But is it anodised?

There has been a long and historically successful line of Battenkill reels through Orvis history. Simple, trouble free, and easily accessible in price-the ultimate in function and simplicity throughout the years. Welcome to the powerful, technologically advanced, and yet still accessible new generation of Battenkill reels. This latest Battenkill Disc version is true to its heritage in looks and performance, but updated with the latest in design improvements and a significantly more powerful drag. The porting and finish pay unmistakable homage to the Battenkills of the past, but this reel incorporates our best-selling mid-arbor design. Underneath that mid arbor is the same sealed drag system found in the Hydros incorporating six interacting carbon and stainless drag surfaces. Positive click drag is simple and easy to adjust. The reel is built of 6061-T6 aircraft aluminum with an ergonomic Delrin handle and changing from left to right hand retrieve is simple. In black nickel. Imported.

I'm not sure what I'm concluding here.
CNC reels are probably always anodised and die cast usually not?
The difference being that it's more expensive to anodise than paint and die cast reels are sold at a lower price point.

If high quality alloy was used in die casting they could be anodised, but they never (?) are?

Discuss in less than 2,000 words
 
It can be both a die cast and CNC produced reel . CNC only means it has been through a machining centre that has its various functions controlled by a ‘ computer ‘ , rather than cams , or a bloke twiddling a wheel etc .
The wheels on your car are most likely a pressure die casting finished on a CNC machining centre . If you have the capability , the capital for tooling and the right facility or contractors etc , why waste production hours turning a bar into scrap if you can present 90% of the job and 10% of the material straight to final machining

Undoubtedly some high end reel frames and spools will be made from bar stock , or billet as our cousins over the pond like to call itv
 
Discussion starter · #109 ·
So are we to think that if the blurb describing a reel does not include the word bar stock or billet then we're probably dealing with an die cast reel that later been machined? Probably not - it's just puff. The word 'machined' turns up more often than CNC or bar stock.

But it matters because we're also told that die cast alloys don't respond terribly well to being dropped. I'm thinking - probably unfairly - of the difference between cast iron (brittle) and and a iron bar (malleable).

I see that my Snowbee Spectre is

[...] precision CNC machined aluminium reel at an amazing price! Machined from high grade, aircraft aluminium bar stock,

But is not anodised, instead it's

Extra hard paint finish for salt-water & chip resistance

Slippery stuff this...
 
The fact is there are all sorts of hybrids out there. I recall Lamson advertising CNC finished cast reels, and someone produced reels with barstock frames and cast spools.

Cast reels don't bounce. Unless on a tight buget or looking for a bargain don't buy . For example I have a barstock greys cassette reel with a couple of cast duplicates bought for the price of the cassettes. Also worth noting that the reel foot may be a different material with a different finish - the chrome finish on the reel foot of the barstock version is bubbling.

Anodising is a more durable finish than paint or powder coating and there are different grades of anodising. Probably summarises all that it is neccessary or wise to say about annodising.
 
The Shimano Biocraft XT large arbor is cold forged which is alleged to be stronger than die cast. Just to add another manufacturing process into the mix.
Is that the whole reel or just the frame? I can easily see that a reel frame can be cold forged but with no technical knowledge I can't see how the spool could be produced in one piece.
 
So are we to think that if the blurb describing a reel does not include the word bar stock or billet then we're probably dealing with an die cast reel that later been machined? Probably not - it's just puff. The word 'machined' turns up more often than CNC or bar stock.

But it matters because we're also told that die cast alloys don't respond terribly well to being dropped. I'm thinking - probably unfairly - of the difference between cast iron (brittle) and and a iron bar (malleable).

I see that my Snowbee Spectre is

[...] precision CNC machined aluminium reel at an amazing price! Machined from high grade, aircraft aluminium bar stock,

But is not anodised, instead it's

Extra hard paint finish for salt-water & chip resistance

Slippery stuff this...
You're trying to categorise stuff from a way too simplistic starting point.

Die casting doesn't tell you the material, it tells you a manufacturing step. Dinky toys were die cast, tells you nowt. Die cast from zamak tells you it was a zinc aluminium magnesium alloy.

Die cast aluminium tells you nowt. The 360 and 380F examples you snipped above tell the mildly informed reader they are eutectic alloys, i.e. a defined eutectic melting point and defined chemical composition to achieve that.

6061 aluminium tells you the alloy composition. You can cast it, die cast it, cold form forge it or hot forge it, all depends on what you are trying to achieve. The letters after the 6061 relate to heat treating and age hardening which are all about creating crystal structures in the metal to enhance mechanical properties. No point melting down a heat treated bar stock because you lose those properties and when the material cools a new crystal structure will develop. Silicon dendrites are particularly interesting to metallurgists and crystal formation is a consideration in advanced cast components. As a total random aside development of single crystal amorphous jet engine blades nearly bankrupted rolls royce, but now they have a technology that allows the blades to run at immense speed in an environment hotter than the material melting temperature- clever stuff.

Back to the basics...
Machining a heat treated bar stock retains the mechanical properties of the selected material. It is wasteful with a fishing reel because of the high scrap. It is also relatively slow because of the volume of material to be removed. CNC machining lends itself to low to medium production runs.

Die casting has a high capital outlay for the tooling. It is not mutually exclusive from subsequent CNC machining, but the intent of die casting is to produce blank/pattern that needs minimal subsequent machining. Alloy and crystal structure will determine the mechanical properties. The mechanical properties can be controlled with the thermal control of the process, and can be done subsequent to casting with heat treatment quenching age hardening etc.

Hot and cold forging (stamping a blank in a big press) can produce patterns that, like die casting, need far less machining than simple barstock. Hot and cold forging affect material crystal structure differently, cold forging to retain crystal structure and "flow" crystals advantageously, hot forging easier and more detail can be added but loss of or modification of crystal structure so subsequent heat treatment required for higher mechanical properties.

So that is materials and machining, anodizing can be applied to suitable substrates so it needs the right alloy and crystal structure: it is not mutually exclusive to die cast or cast components.

Anodizing is not necessarily more expensive than painting, plating, powder coating etc.. Depends what you are trying to achieve.

So it boils down to plenty-much-cheapness-happy-dragon as few steps as possible, or shogun-samurai-shimano-cold-forged-monster-slayer.

And if you want a really cool finish talk to these people:

My mob uses them for gas chromatography and spectrometry sampling systems. CVD is what intel use to make chips and de-beers artificial diamonds.

And the U in arbour is middle english pertaining to trees whereas the correct english derives from the french pertaining to axis and used in engineering.
 
I think one of the main differences between die cast and CNC 6061-T6 type alloy is that die cast reels might break or bend (depending on temperature and how it lands) if dropped from height onto a hard surface such as concrete. If they bend, then they may well break if trying to bend them back into shape.

In these days of seemingly ever-lighter skeletal framed reels, a CNC alloy reel may be just as likely to bend if dropped from height onto a hard surface, although I believe there may be less chance of the CNC reel breaking if bent gently back into shape. However, that doesn't mean there is no chance of it breaking, or no chance of it being too badly deformed to return to its original shape without buckling.

The take-home message here being, take care not to drop a fly reel from height onto a hard surface. If you do, there's no guarantee that significant or irreparable damage won't occur, no matter if it's die cast or CNC machined from 6061-T6 alloy.
 
Discussion starter · #116 ·
And the U in arbour is middle english pertaining to trees whereas the correct english derives from the french pertaining to axis and used in engineering.
Tricky business this, choosing between French and American. What's the lessor of two weevils?

Some words end in -or in American English and -our in British English. These words come from two languages, French words which end in -ur and Latin words which end in -or. After the Norman conquest of England, French spellings with endings of -our became preferred. In the United States, the 1828 Webster's dictionary settled on the -or endings of such words, which perpetuated this type of spelling in the United States.

I'm sticking with British English.
 
Tricky business this, choosing between French and American. What's the lessor of two weevils?

Some words end in -or in American English and -our in British English. These words come from two languages, French words which end in -ur and Latin words which end in -or. After the Norman conquest of England, French spellings with endings of -our became preferred. In the United States, the 1828 Webster's dictionary settled on the -or endings of such words, which perpetuated this type of spelling in the United States.

I'm sticking with British English.
You're sticking with the derivation from and pertaining to trees. Never mind, tangled says trumps reality. Same MO in all your threads.
 
Discussion starter · #118 ·
You're sticking with the derivation from and pertaining to trees.
Nope, the opposite.

arbor (n.1)

c. 1300, herber, "herb garden, pleasure garden," from Old French erbier "field, meadow; kitchen garden," from Latin herba "grass, herb" (see herb). Later "a grassy plot" (mid-14c., a sense also in Old French), "shaded nook, bower formed by intertwining of trees, shrubs, or vines" (mid-14c.). It is probably not from Latin arbor "tree" (see arbor (n.2)), though perhaps that word has influenced its spelling:
[O]riginally signifying a place for the cultivation of herbs, a pleasure-ground, garden, subsequently applied to the bower or rustic shelter which commonly occupied the most conspicuous situation in the garden ; and thus the etymological reference to herbs being no longer apparent, the spelling was probably accommodated to the notion of being sheltered by trees or shrubs (arbor). [Hensleigh Wedgwood, "A Dictionary of English Etymology," 1859]
But the change from er- to ar- before consonants in Middle English also reflects a pronunciation shift: compare farm from ferme, harbor from Old English herebeorg

arbour (n.)

chiefly British English spelling of arbor (n.1); for spelling, see -or.
 
Nope, the opposite.

arbor (n.1)

c. 1300, herber, "herb garden, pleasure garden," from Old French erbier "field, meadow; kitchen garden," from Latin herba "grass, herb" (see herb). Later "a grassy plot" (mid-14c., a sense also in Old French), "shaded nook, bower formed by intertwining of trees, shrubs, or vines" (mid-14c.). It is probably not from Latin arbor "tree" (see arbor (n.2)), though perhaps that word has influenced its spelling:

But the change from er- to ar- before consonants in Middle English also reflects a pronunciation shift: compare farm from ferme, harbor from Old English herebeorg

arbour (n.)

chiefly British English spelling of arbor (n.1); for spelling, see -or.
EtymologyEdit

From Old French arbre, from Latin arbor, arborem. See also Catalan arbre, Italian albero, Occitan arbre, Portuguese árvore, Romanian arbore.

PronunciationEditIPA(key): /aʁbʁ/Audio

arbre m (plural arbres)

tree (plant, diagram, anything in the form of a tree)axle(mechanics) drive shaft
 
Discussion starter · #120 ·
My etymology is better than your etymology and so is my dad.


-or
word-forming element making nouns of quality, state, or condition, from Middle English -our, from Old French -our (Modern French -eur), from Latin -orem (nominative -or), a suffix added to past participle verbal stems. Also in some cases from Latin -atorem (nominative -ator).

In U.S., via Noah Webster, -or is nearly universal (but not in glamour), while in Britain -our is used in most cases (but with many exceptions: author, error, tenor, senator, ancestor, horror etc.). The -our form predominated after c. 1300, but Mencken reports that the first three folios of Shakespeare's plays used both spellings indiscriminately and with equal frequency; only in the Fourth Folio of 1685 does -our become consistent.

A partial revival of -or on the Latin model took place from 16c. (governour began to lose its -u- 16c. and it was gone by 19c.), and also among phonetic spellers in both England and America (John Wesley wrote that -or was "a fashionable impropriety" in England in 1791).

Webster criticized the habit of deleting -u- in -our words in his first speller ("A Grammatical Institute of the English Language," commonly called the Blue-Black Speller) in 1783. His own deletion of the -u-began with the revision of 1804, and was enshrined in the influential "Comprehensive Dictionary of the English Language" (1806), which also established in the U.S. -ic for British -ick and -er for -re, along with many other attempts at reformed spelling which never caught on (such as masheen for machine). His attempt to justify them on the grounds of etymology and the custom of great writers does not hold up.

Fowler notes the British drop the -u- when forming adjectives ending in -orous (humorous) and derivatives in -ation and -ize, in which cases the Latin origin is respected (such as vaporize). When the Americans began to consistently spell it one way, however, the British reflexively hardened their insistence on the other. "The American abolition of -our in such words as honour and favour has probably retarded rather than quickened English progress in the same direction." [Fowler]
 
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