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Discussion starter · #21 · (Edited)
With click and pawl, it's the simplicity and ease of servicing and Americans do really like the loud noise they make with a running fish, which tires a fish, allowing it to run a long way without the drag disc burning out.
The salmon anglers bemoan the loss of the high db click too with their modern drag reels. I tell them to hire a small boy with a football rattle.
Sealed drags have small surface areas and being enclosed, heat up fast and fail.
That's just poor design and not restricted to sealed drags. It's perfectly possible to design a reel with a modern drag system that can both dissipate heat and not break down under the pressure. Some are better than others but us trout guys never need to test them.
Turn up with a sealed drag in a skiff on a flats day - and you'll get laughed at and told to put it away at best, or to chuck it in the briny, by your guide- draw bars still rule the roost.
Draw bar reels have a bar that goes right through the axle from the centre to the drag knob, tensioning this draws the spool down into a cork or composite Delrin drag, like an Abel BG etc. grit and crud can't really find its way easily between the surfaces as they are pressed together. They usually have a ratchet, to engage the drag, when retrieving line they will freely spin, enabling you to "bat" the rim and retrieve a lot of line really fast.
I have to say I'm confused. Draw bar reels are the norm now for all reels - sealed or open aren't they? Just the usual friction washer type with varying forms of washers. Some are better than others. It's just that in the usual way of trout fishing nobody seems to have bothered working out empirically what's best.
 
The salmon anglers bemoan the loss of the high db click too with their modern drag reels. I tell them to hire a small boy with a football rattle.

That's just poor design and not restricted to sealed drags. It's perfectly possible to design a reel with a modern drag system that can both dissipate heat and not break down under the pressure. Some are better than others but us trout guys never need to test them.

I have to say I'm confused. Draw bar reels are the norm now for all reels - sealed or open aren't they? Just the usual friction washer type with varying forms of washers. Some are better than others. It's just that in the usual way of trout fishing nobody seems to have bothered working out empirically what's best.
Draw bar reels have a deierste tension bar that goes through the hollow axle, with double or triple high speed marine grade sealed bearings, pressed into the spool, very few modern reels are like this. See the picture I put up.
The finely engineered and complex machining with exotic metals, tends to make them pricey, they run ÂŁ700 to ÂŁ3000 price wise. Sealed drags, by their nature of being contained all heat up badly, the cork or delrin discs are mounted on discs with radiator like fins at the back to dissipate heat.
Big rainbows can run enough in open water to wreck sealed drag reels. The o ring seals soon melt first, then the disc can expand and seize. Cone drags like Lamson,are better. But still soon get very hot.
 
The basic design of fly reel hasn't changed much in more than 350 years. The true grandfather of fly fishing, Col. Robert Venables, was using one in the aftermath of the Civil War. He wrote about them in his book, The Experienced Angler.

He could walk onto any trout fishery or fly shop, pick up a reel and know exactly what it was for. He would marvel at its lightness and the materials it is made of, but the basic design would be very much as he knew it.
He may well marvel at the lightness of modern fly reels, but I think he'd most likely soil his armour when he saw the price of the bloody things these days!
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
Draw bar reels have a deierste tension bar that goes through the hollow axle, with double or triple high speed marine grade sealed bearings, pressed into the spool, very few modern reels are like this. See the picture I put up.
The finely engineered and complex machining with exotic metals, tends to make them pricey, they run ÂŁ700 to ÂŁ3000 price wise. Sealed drags, by their nature of being contained all heat up badly, the cork or delrin discs are mounted on discs with radiator like fins at the back to dissipate heat.
Big rainbows can run enough in open water to wreck sealed drag reels. The o ring seals soon melt first, then the disc can expand and seize. Cone drags like Lamson,are better. But still soon get very hot.
Ok, I've liked you post but I'm also calling bull**** on the idea that trout fishers in the UK would ever encounter anything like the circumstances that would melt a drag or necessitate a ÂŁ3,000 reel. (Or even Salmon fishers - of which i'm occasionally one.)

I'm not seeing the difference between a sealed or unsealed drag either. In practice heat build up in the same way in both and the seal, if properly engineered, could dissipate heat better than unsealed by connecting more directly to the casing. It's a fairly trivial engineering issue. I found this guy's analysis of drags QI.

FISHING REEL DRAGS - THE BASICS
 
Ok, I've liked you post but I'm also calling bull**** on the idea that trout fishers in the UK would ever encounter anything like the circumstances that would melt a drag or necessitate a ÂŁ3,000 reel. (Or even Salmon fishers - of which i'm occasionally one.)

I'm not seeing the difference between a sealed or unsealed drag either. In practice heat build up in the same way in both and the seal, if properly engineered, could dissipate heat better than unsealed by connecting more directly to the casing. It's a fairly trivial engineering issue. I found this guy's analysis of drags QI.

FISHING REEL DRAGS - THE BASICS
Draw bars are the oldest and simplest form of drag - after the thumb, I don't get why H is making an issue of it. The old plastic composite lineshooter is a drawbar reel, there's nought elite about it. These days a drag is either sealed or draw-bar (= unsealed) it's as simple as that. Other unsealed designs (like on Lamson LP's or oddities like the STH turbine) have left the market. Remembering that the scope of this thread is UK trout reels.
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
Draw bars are the oldest and simplest form of drag - after the thumb,
Yeh, it seems that they just squeeze friction plates together. But they all do that in differing ways.
I don't get why H is making an issue of it. The old plastic composite lineshooter is a drawbar reel, there's nought elite about it. These days a drag is either sealed or draw-bar (= unsealed) it's as simple as that. Other unsealed designs (like on Lamson LP's or oddities like the STH turbine) have left the market. Remembering that the scope of this thread is UK trout reels.
I don't think it's an issue. it's just interesting to hear about these different interpretations. Aren't all modern reels forms of draw bar - in that tightening the drag knob pulls the spindle (bar?) and plate against the friction washer causing the brake? Or am I missing something here?
 
Draw bars are the oldest and simplest form of drag - after the thumb, I don't get why H is making an issue of it. The old plastic composite lineshooter is a drawbar reel, there's nought elite about it. These days a drag is either sealed or draw-bar (= unsealed) it's as simple as that. Other unsealed designs (like on Lamson LP's or oddities like the STH turbine) have left the market. Remembering that the scope of this thread is UK trout reels.
Draw bar refers to the separate pin that slots completely through the hollow axle that the reel spool mounts. It floats and is independent from the hollow axle and the spool and back, it ensures an even pressure on the drag, to avoid any pulsing, when the drag is in operation on a running fish.
 
Draw bars are the oldest and simplest form of drag - after the thumb, I don't get why H is making an issue of it. The old plastic composite lineshooter is a drawbar reel, there's nought elite about it. These days a drag is either sealed or draw-bar (= unsealed) it's as simple as that. Other unsealed designs (like on Lamson LP's or oddities like the STH turbine) have left the market. Remembering that the scope of this thread is UK trout reels.
"Modern UK trout reels" ? Other than bench made, there are none, they are all now actually mainly made in the Far East. Should it not be modern trout reels sold in the U.K. today? That would then include pretty much all those sold in the U.K. regardless of origin. Also can a " modern U.K. trout reel" only be used on trout in the U.K.? What about Carp, Pike or Bass or Mackerel or Mullet?
 
Draw bar refers to the separate pin that slots completely through the hollow axle that the reel spool mounts. It floats and is independent from the hollow axle and the spool and back, it ensures an even pressure on the drag, to avoid any pulsing, when the drag is in operation on a running fish.
Sorry it's only terminology but I don't buy that. A hollow axle is a refinement/complication that actually compromises the basic simplicity of the draw bar design (but is still a draw bar drag). My Bauer M series reels have no hollow axle and are are certainly draw bar design.

My understanding is that the scope of the thread is fly reels intended for targeting trout in UK waters, I'm sure Tangled will clarify.
 
Discussion starter · #32 · (Edited)
My understanding is that the scope of the thread is fly reels intended for targeting trout in UK waters,
Yup.

I'm just trying avoid having to cover every form of fly reel ever manufactured by restricting it to the kind of gear we'll normally encounter when fishing for trout in UK.
 
Sorry it's only terminology but I don't buy that. A hollow axle is a refinement/complication that actually compromises the basic simplicity of the draw bar design (but is still a draw bar drag). My Bauer M series reels have no hollow axle and are are certainly draw bar design.

My understanding is that the scope of the thread is fly reels intended for targeting trout in UK waters, I'm sure Tangled will clarify.
A draw bar reel has a draw bar, it ain't a draw bar reel if it ain't got one - I use them in the U.K. - as overseas and have several, as do many others who reside in the U.K. We all have our own opinions, different as they are .
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
Here's an Islander of mine, showing the drawbar, these are the most reliable type for saltwater - nothing else comes close, Abel BG, Flylogic (now defunct,) Orvis Vortex, Penn, Bauer and a few others do the same design.
You can see the much larger drag surface area in the Islander, compared to the Jamiesons hermetically sealed drag reel, Sage 3000 D types are similar. Sealed drags heat up and fail with a fast running open water fish.
The only
Issue with draw bar reels is the very high prices.

View attachment 55929
View attachment 55931
I'll definately add a section for drawbar reels and nick your pictures.
I don't understand why they're so expensive though - it's quite a primitive looking mechanism.

Do all drawbar reels use cork friction pads? Are they greased?

This is counterintuitive but it appears to be a fact.

The surface area of the drag washers has no relevance to the amount of drag your reel can produce. The classic laws of friction state that the amount of friction is independent of the area of contact for a wide range of areas.

And this on heat generated by friction

Two things happen when your drag starts to run and heat is generated. First, frictional (drag washer) surfaces will lose friction (lower the coefficient of friction) as they get hotter. And to offset that effect, heat causes all drag washer materials to "swell" (coefficient of thermal expansion). That swelling in the components of your drag system means that you get the same effect as tightening the drag knob and compressing the drag adjustment spring; that is, drag pressure increases. If you could balance the two exactly, you would lose friction with heat, but the heat would increase the pressure so you would get a compensating increase in friction. Unfortunately this balance is very difficult to achieve in the real world, so what would actually happen in the worst case scenario is what is called a "thermal runaway". Eventually the drag system will fry itself and fail. It's not a pretty or sweet smelling event. We have seen it happen very quickly in the DragensteinTM tests.
So how much heat am I talking about here? I have seen what appeared to be normal drag system function generate heat in excess of 500 degrees Fahrenheit. That is enough to melt most plastic components if that is what some of the components are comprised. In one case during the DragensteinTM tests, the meltdown was only small in a component that came into contact with the drag washers, but it was enough to cause failure in the drag system.

HEAT SINK
Take heart there is a solution, though I have only seen it "incidentally" applied. If the heat can be dissipated sufficiently, the drag will continue to perform in a steady manner. I have only seen a very few reels do that. When analyzed, they all did it for just one reason. The drag system design had utilized an effective "heat sink", that is, provided a place for the heat to be drawn away from the surfaces of the drag washers. This single factor can do more to help a reel drag perform well than any other.
Most metal drag washers are made from either stainless steel or aluminum. Presumably these metals are used to prevent rust and corrosion. However, they are far from equal. Aluminum has one of the highest coefficients of thermal expansion of all metals and also will absorb heat the fastest (thermal conductivity). In the confines of a drag system, and sandwiched between other drag washers, its expansion will very quickly tighten a drag system and increase drag pressures; sometimes within moments. Stainless steel and perhaps titanium, which is much more expensive, are better choices for drag washers, but they also will expand and increase drag pressures.

In most spinning reels the best heat sink for drag washers is the body of the aluminum spool. If it is heavy enough; that is, has enough aluminum, it can quickly absorb the drag system heat if the drag washers contact the spool body. Plastic spools are a very poor choice for spinning reel spools.
This points out that trying to make spinning reels especially light in weight may not be the best design.
 
The basic design of fly reel hasn't changed much in more than 350 years. The true grandfather of fly fishing, Col. Robert Venables, was using one in the aftermath of the Civil War. He wrote about them in his book, The Experienced Angler.

He could walk onto any trout fishery or fly shop, pick up a reel and know exactly what it was for. He would marvel at its lightness and the materials it is made of, but the basic design would be very much as he knew it.

He may not have been the nicest person, but back then soldiers didn't have room in their lives for being nice, but he was an angler, and moreover one with a keen eye and and enquiring mind. He wrote about things that disappeared from fishing only to reappear 250 years later when someone re-invented the wheel.

He is the giant upon whose shoulders we stand.

"Let your own observation be your constant and daily instructor, for if they will not take the fly upon the surface, then try them under, there being no certain rule in this in my opinion." Col. Robert Venables, The Experienced Angler. 1662
Wasn't it Venables who advised re. fishing subsurface with caddis imitations and some leаd?
 
I have no idea how a reel as simple as the Islander costs $750. But this is flyfishing.

Because they are so well made, last a lifetime or three, take a lot of time to make and have a fantastic after sales service, for all models past and present, unlike the showers of sh#t companies in Blighty and the Far Eastern mass produced questionable quality items.
If you used one, you would understand. They are no different to Abel, Megoff, Bogdan, Hardy-Alnwick built, Wurm or Saracione in terms of cost, longevity and pleasure to use and they hold their value.
$750 is extremely cheap for anything as well engineered that will last a lifetime. A Bogdan or Saracione would cost several times more.
A tonne of feed wheat will cost you ÂŁ350 today or $440 just to put value into perspective.
This is what you pay for- see Boca reel test, the fly reels will do the same if you lock off the ratchet. Every single component item of an Islander is made in house from scratch, even the bearings.
 
I'll definately add a section for drawbar reels and nick your pictures.
I don't understand why they're so expensive though - it's quite a primitive looking mechanism.

Do all drawbar reels use cork friction pads? Are they greased?

This is counterintuitive but it appears to be a fact.

The surface area of the drag washers has no relevance to the amount of drag your reel can produce. The classic laws of friction state that the amount of friction is independent of the area of contact for a wide range of areas.

And this on heat generated by friction

Two things happen when your drag starts to run and heat is generated. First, frictional (drag washer) surfaces will lose friction (lower the coefficient of friction) as they get hotter. And to offset that effect, heat causes all drag washer materials to "swell" (coefficient of thermal expansion). That swelling in the components of your drag system means that you get the same effect as tightening the drag knob and compressing the drag adjustment spring; that is, drag pressure increases. If you could balance the two exactly, you would lose friction with heat, but the heat would increase the pressure so you would get a compensating increase in friction. Unfortunately this balance is very difficult to achieve in the real world, so what would actually happen in the worst case scenario is what is called a "thermal runaway". Eventually the drag system will fry itself and fail. It's not a pretty or sweet smelling event. We have seen it happen very quickly in the DragensteinTM tests.
So how much heat am I talking about here? I have seen what appeared to be normal drag system function generate heat in excess of 500 degrees Fahrenheit. That is enough to melt most plastic components if that is what some of the components are comprised. In one case during the DragensteinTM tests, the meltdown was only small in a component that came into contact with the drag washers, but it was enough to cause failure in the drag system.

HEAT SINK
Take heart there is a solution, though I have only seen it "incidentally" applied. If the heat can be dissipated sufficiently, the drag will continue to perform in a steady manner. I have only seen a very few reels do that. When analyzed, they all did it for just one reason. The drag system design had utilized an effective "heat sink", that is, provided a place for the heat to be drawn away from the surfaces of the drag washers. This single factor can do more to help a reel drag perform well than any other.
Most metal drag washers are made from either stainless steel or aluminum. Presumably these metals are used to prevent rust and corrosion. However, they are far from equal. Aluminum has one of the highest coefficients of thermal expansion of all metals and also will absorb heat the fastest (thermal conductivity). In the confines of a drag system, and sandwiched between other drag washers, its expansion will very quickly tighten a drag system and increase drag pressures; sometimes within moments. Stainless steel and perhaps titanium, which is much more expensive, are better choices for drag washers, but they also will expand and increase drag pressures.

In most spinning reels the best heat sink for drag washers is the body of the aluminum spool. If it is heavy enough; that is, has enough aluminum, it can quickly absorb the drag system heat if the drag washers contact the spool body. Plastic spools are a very poor choice for spinning reel spools.
This points out that trying to make spinning reels especially light in weight may not be the best design.
Cork is the most common, but Delrin is also used. Cork withstands intense heat and friction, why Cork bark trees exist in wildfire regions of the World- natural selection.
An occasional rub with a tiny amount of neates foot oil is all the lubrication you need on the cork and of course the Cork can be easily replaced. Many sealed drags use cork and stainless stacks- Ari 't Harts for one.
 
Discussion starter · #39 ·
Because they are so well made, last a lifetime or three, take a lot of time to make and have a fantastic after sales service, for all models past and present, unlike the showers of sh#t companies in Blighty and the Far Eastern mass produced garbage.
I can't see how it can take any longer to make or use any different materials than a normal good quality CNC reel. How could it? It simply can't be anything to do with cost of manufacture and materials. This is simple engineering.
If you used one, you would understand.
I'd probably find them very nice things but I think my Snowbee is also a nice thing.

I've just taken apart everything in a ÂŁ19 Maxcatch ECO reel just to see and I think that's pretty well made too. It's die cast but it's got a decent enough drag and all the parts fit. I wouldn't take it bone fish fishing but it'll easily handle a river brown trout.

I reckon if Maxcatch copied the Islander they could make them of the same quality for <$50.
 
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